We recently had the opportunity to speak with Chris Reitermann, the Co-Chief Executive of Ogilvy Asia and CEO of Greater China, about the role of AI in the advertising business in China. With an impressive 28-year career at Ogilvy, Chris has been instrumental in the successful rise of advertising in China. Ogilvy China is one of the country’s largest and most respected agencies, and it was awarded Integrated Marketing Agency of the Year by Campaign Asia in 2022. So, what does Chris have to say about the future of AI in branding in China?
1. Are we at another crossroads with the rise of AI? How will AI impact the business of advertising in China? Are agencies still relevant?
2. Will AI fully automate the advertising process? What will be the human role in the creative process?
3. Once far ahead, is China behind the AI curve now?
4. The agency’s role has fundamentally not changed, despite the mediums and tools that have changed.
5. Where will China evolve post-Covid, and how has this changed the country’s optimism?
6. Where does work/life balance fit into post-Covid agency culture?
7. Is an agency a place for a new recruit, or should they join the brand side?
8. How does Ogilvy balance experts and integration under a single office network?
9. Good growth is just around the corner for both agencies and brands in China
10. Local clients vs. global client needs are different – it’s the local clients that want brand building
11. What are the biggest challenges for Chinese brands going global?
12. What’s the importance of technology for agency services in China?
13. What’s your favorite David Ogilvy quote?
14. Hey, are you still in China? Is China a regional hub?
15. A/B Test: Creatvity, Shanghai, MidJourney & KFC
Chris Reitermann on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/chrisreitermann/
About Ogilvy China: https://www.ogilvy.com/cn/eng#work
Ogilvy China on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/ogilvychina/
For everything ShanghaiZhan: http://zhanstation.com/
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Bryce on Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/brycewhitwam/
Ali on Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/alikazmi/
Transcript
Bryce Whitwam: Welcome to ShanghaiZhan on a raw and lively, regular debate about China Tech advertising, creativity platforms, and the intersection of it all. Join us each session for timely and relevant discussions on all things China Marketing will be joined by an entire spectrum of China experts, and you can learn more about Shanghai John at our website, john station.com.
I’m Bryce Whitwam. And I’m Ali Kazmi, and we’d like to thank you for your continued support. If you’d like to show, share it with your friends or better yet, give us a five star review on Apple Podcast or Spotify. We really appreciate your support. Ali, we’re talking Ogilvy today in 2021, China accounted for 18% of the global advertising spend.
It’s a 123 billion US dollar [00:01:00] business and. You know, for almost 30 years, Ogilvy China has really become a household name in the ad business. Today, the business in China is fragmented. Ogilvy’s China shares a spotlight with a number of Chinese and international companies. Today, local companies account for about 50% of the total revenue.
Ogilvy China still and continues to enjoy the reputation as being the place where many young people over the years have graduated into marketing roles, setting up competing businesses. In some cases, many have climbed the ranks to become CMOs of flourishing businesses. To talk about Ogilvy, we. Have none other than Chris Reiterman who needs no introduction, but we have to give him one.
He is the co-chief executive of Ogilvy Asia and Greater China. He’s a husband, father, coach, mentor, board member, investor, co-founder, and has been, At Ogilvy for his entire career. Is that correct, Chris? Yes, it is. [00:02:00] Yes. For 28 years at Ogilvy in China, Ogilvy is home to many of the big brands, Huawei k, ffc, Unilever, Coca-Cola, vw Shiseido, to name a few.
Just two weeks ago, it was hailed the most creative agency network by the world advertising research council and campaign Asia Pacific’s awarded Ogilvy China integrated. Marketing Agency of the year 2022. Chris, welcome to Shanghai. John,
Chris Reitermann: thank you so much for having me. Finally, I got invited.
Bryce Whitwam: It was deliberate.
We wanted to bring up the numbers so we allowed the other guests to set the foundation so we could bring you on and make sure that, uh, to give you the audience that, uh, rightly deserved. So we’re just gonna start off the bat, Chris, and talk about the industry. That being, of course, post Covid. And also about the issue of ai.
We’re kind of at a crossroads, I think, in many cases, not just in China, [00:03:00] you know, not just because of the covid, uh, situation for the last three years, but the fact that. You know, we now speak a different language of advertising and media, that the advertising is ai. Where do you see AI as a boon or bust for the advertising industry?
Where do you think the opportunity lies in the industry? If you look at it for the big chunks, consulting, strategy, creative, and production. Is AI going to kill us or is it an opportunity to. Rebuild the, the industry.
Chris Reitermann: Well, you know, you, you look at our industry, I think we’ve been at the crossroads, I don’t know how many times over the last 20 years, uh, you know, when the internet came up.
We were at the crossroads when Metaverse came, we were at the crossroads when lots of things, uh, we were at the crossroads. Uh, were still around. Uh, you know, the industry overall is still growing. Uh, advertising spending is still growing. And, uh, you know, I think there’s still a need for what we do and, and [00:04:00] probably more of a need for what we do than it’s ever been.
Uh, ai definitely, you know, the talk of every meeting right now and, and wherever you go, you hear about ai. People talk about ai. I am very excited about, you know, all the opportunities that AI will offer and, and it will definitely change our business. It will change everybody’s business and, and it will affect all the parts of our business.
You know, to me, uh, AI will not replace what we do. It will enhance what we do. It will change what we do. Uh, I think there’s massive opportunities to drive efficiencies, to increase productivity for what we do and to, to kind of funnel. Our resources in, in what we do. I think a lot of the basic tasks of what we’re doing right now manually, uh, yeah, can be in the future done by AI and can be enhanced by ai, but I think it gives us great opportunity to [00:05:00] do things much better.
All the various parts of our business, from strategy to consumer insights to. Creative to production, uh, everywhere. AI has a role, role to play. I, I think it gives us tremendous opportunity to reinvent our business and, and make it even more meaningful. I’m not really worried about that. It’s gonna. Take away our business and, and what we do.
Uh, but I think it, it’ll be, uh, a great tool to enhance, uh, a lot of things in, in our business. Can you be more
Bryce Whitwam: specific in the context of where you see the greatest enhancements? We had a guest on a few weeks ago, JJ Wong, from one thing that I initially saw as an opportunity is the incredible amount of content.
That is coming out of China, advertising agencies now, hundreds and hundreds of videos being placed right time, right place. Do you see AI as being enhancement [00:06:00] at that point? Helping agencies create more targeted content that could. Reach customers at the right time during their social media interaction.
Chris Reitermann: AI can definitely enhance a lot of that, but, uh, I, I don’t think it can fully automate all of that either. You look at. Our process from, you know, how we usually start, uh, in strategy where we spend a lot of time, uh, understanding consumers, uh, getting consumer insights. A lot of that stuff can be done through ai.
Uh, when you look at the creative process, you know, a lot of the copywriting can be enhanced to ai. A lot of the basic tasks of generating content can be done by ai. Definitely a lot of the video content can be produced by ai. Uh, you know, videos can be optimized, enhanced, uh, can be more [00:07:00] targeted.
Definitely across every part of our business. Uh, AI plays a role and will play a role, but I also think, um, you know, it will still need humans to make more sense out of it. Uh, because if you use ai, you know, everybody will have the same thing in the end. So there still will be a human factor in it, uh, to, you know, make sure that you really have something that’s unique or you have something, uh, that stands out.
Every part of the business will be affected by it. And, and I think it offers huge opportunities when you look at just all the different tools, uh, that are available today already to do things much better than we’re currently doing it. And, and I, and I think a lot of the. Uh, more low end tasks that we currently perform manually will be replaced by AI in the future, and that should give us an opportunity just to put more resources against, uh, you know, more high [00:08:00] end, uh, tasks.
In, in, in what we do.
Bryce Whitwam: Do you see the applications specifically within China are taking off, or do you think China’s a bit behind? I know that there was some concern in China regarding the openness. Do you see. In the context of creating creative content, are there advances made in China or is China ahead or behind?
Chris Reitermann: And I think, you know, in China, like everywhere else, uh, in the world, you have obviously a lot of issues around data privacy, around ethics, legal issues that need to be sorted and, and you know, I do think for every. Tool that you see on a global stage right now, there’s a China equivalent. Uh, I, I don’t think.
Uh, AI in our part of the business is, is getting kind of the talk, uh, and, and the prominence that it gets in, in the west. But you know, you know China, from a government [00:09:00] level, AI is one of the key industries that the Chinese government is investing in. So you can definitely expect that, uh, China will catch up very, very quickly.
And, and you know, I think China’s doing a lot of great stuff in the AI space already, so can only expect that it will find its way in, into what we do in, in a much bigger way, uh, in the future. And, and not in the, you know, far out future. In the very near future. I think it was on a
Bryce Whitwam: panel with you, Chris, and you said something that I still remember.
This was during the last Crossroads transformation into. Digital, internet, social media communications. You said that I feel that we are now at a point where we are really providing value to our clients real true value. I always recall that when I first came to China and did advertising, I felt sometimes that we were helping of course, build brands, and I’m not taking away from the contributions, [00:10:00] but at the same time, there was a lot of growth in our client’s business due to.
Natural distribution that they just expanded targets markets, and thanks to the advertisement, the business grew 30%. When in reality the the growth was really from the fact that they expanded the brands into lower tier markets. Do you still see the value of advertising agencies in this space That we are?
Indispensable to our clients that we still provide that kind of positive contribution. We always talk to brands that are taking a lot of the agency roles in-house. They’re dealing directly with the media players themselves, bypassing media agencies. Do you see the role of the agency as still vital or more importantly, exceedingly valuable to the the client’s business in this phase of the crossroads transformation?
Chris Reitermann: Well, if, uh, you know, agencies are [00:11:00] used for what they’re good in, uh, I absolutely believe there’s still a lot of value we can bring to clients. I think a lot of people. Often misunderstand what advertising really is. Uh, and, and you know, the second you mentioned the word advertising, I think a lot of people still think about traditional advertising in, you know, doing films and videos and TV commercials and stuff like that.
Uh, which now you can. Through ai, through many other means. Uh, you can, you know, get those done in, in many different places. But, uh, ultimately what what we are doing is, you know, we bring, uh, Ideas and new ideas to clients to help them to build meaningful brands. And, and, uh, you know, there’s no doubt in my mind that brands are even more important today than they’ve been in, in the past few years in [00:12:00] China, and especially in a market where growth is not that easy to come by anymore.
Uh, you, you need to differentiate yourself. You need to have a, you know, strong proposition. And, uh, creativity for businesses is, is absolutely essential. Uh, how that’s then come to life, uh, is obviously very different than what it was a couple of years ago or 20 years ago, but, uh, there’s, uh, absolute evidence that stronger brands perform better as as a business.
So, uh, what we do definitely still is, is very valuable. Uh, and, and you know, I, I do think. Uh, there’s lots of tasks, basic tasks that clients take in-house. Uh, I think that is often kind of a, a cycle that, that companies go through, you know, from trying to do a lot of things by themselves to in-housing a lot of capabilities to then outsourcing them again.
So we’ve [00:13:00] been through that many times before. Uh, but I think, you know, if you really. Good in what you do and you, you, you are able to help clients build strong, differentiated brands. Uh, There’s absolutely a, a business to be had and a strong role for us to play, and there are certain tasks that companies can take in-house, but, uh, lots of things they can’t and, and that’s why they’re working with, with companies like us.
Yeah, I
Ali Kazmi: I just wanted to add something on that one as well. But I’ve used chat G P T a number of times. Um, and this is not, perhaps not for idea generation, but the point that Chris made on differentiation. I kind of feel like in in writing prompts for chat g p T, it doesn’t necessarily give me. Something that’s, you know, something that’s insightful, something that’s topical, something that’s trending, something that I can turn into an insight that can then turn into an idea [00:14:00] that can then help contribute towards the differentiation that, that Chris is referring to.
So I think I, I kind of feel. The, the, the application of artificial intelligence is still quite topical, and for it to really get clients think there’s, there’s opportunity for efficiencies, there’s opportunities for it to create content. At scale. But when it comes to that differentiation piece, when it comes to trying to do something that’s really, that’s focused on what’s happening in Beijing today, or that’s focused on what’s happening in TK today and turning that into opportunity, I think that still requires a lot of human effort and I think that’s what clients are looking for.
I don’t know if, if that resonates with you, Chris.
Chris Reitermann: Yeah. I mean, first of all, there’s lots of other applications than just chatt, G B T, right? That’s just one of the many. Take chat, g p t for the most basic form that it does can help you to generate content, uh, in a, [00:15:00] in a second, but it will not generate great content for you.
It will, it will generate vast amount of content. Still need someone to. Make that work, make it better, edit it, so it saves you a lot of time to research and, and do the basic tasks. But I still need people to take what you get and, and make it work. I mean, you cannot just copy something from Jet G p t and, and put it on your website.
Maybe the basic task of, you know, researching. Write, writing a basic outline, that stuff will go away. But then you still need someone to make sense out of it and, and make it better. And the same for all the AI tools, uh, around video or, you know, imaging or whatever. Uh, you get lots of stuff, but that’s not necessarily
Bryce Whitwam: great stuff.
I think there’s enormous opportunity for creatives [00:16:00] to be able to manipulate prompts in being able to use the technology in such a way. That helps them to create innovative stuff. Um, it’s really an art form. If you, if you look at any, any of the AI type tools, for example, like Mid Journey, it really comes down to your ability to be able to manipulate the system.
It’s not, yes, anybody can create visuals instantly, but are they any good? Those future creators will be those people who not necessarily are adept at Photoshop or Illustrator. But they’re actually good at using prompts and manipulating the platform in the right way to be able to create what you want.
It also means that creative meetings will still be, people will be still looking at their phones and computers and not actually discussing things. They’ll just be sitting here talking to AI tools, which seems to be often the case. Just switching gears a bit. Just in terms of the China market and how things stand, we’ve [00:17:00] seen really a tough three years for, for China brands and businesses alike.
Uh, coming out of the Covid lockdowns, how are things evolving in the context of what are the big creative themes going on? What are the merging. Themes on young people. Is it everything back to normal again or is it different than unbridled optimism that we’ve seen in the last 20 years? Could you give some examples?
Chris Reitermann: Yeah, sure. You know, definitely the last two years, uh, three years that. Everyone, you know, businesses, people, individuals, families. This will not just go back to normal in a day. But you know, China, uh, as much as I do, I think people move on here very fast, right? So when you look at. You know, three months ago, four months ago, in the sentiment, uh, [00:18:00] three, four months ago in the sentiment today, it’s, it’s already, you know, a massive difference to, in just a few months.
I definitely think there will be some changes in, you know, lifestyle and, and how people think about the future, how people think about their lives. Uh, I think some of it probably will be a good thing when you. Think about it the last 20 years, uh, you know, most of the people that are in the workforce kind of lived through the last 20 years, or grew up in the last 20 years where everything was just growth, growth, growth and more growth.
Uh, I think the last two years probably got a lot of people to reflect a bit on, on their life, uh, that it’s not just all about money and growth. So you definitely see in terms of consumer behavior, a a lot of. Thinking around wellness, around better balancing lives, about spending more time with family, about all these things are, are good things.
I think I’m. Quite [00:19:00] optimistic that, uh, yes, the last two years were very hard, but some good things will come out of it as well.
Ali Kazmi: I mean, I, I have to say this cuz we were all here 20 years ago. Um, but I remember how every insight that every, that any expatriate strategist would come up with for any campaign used to kind of hover around this one child policy thing.
Maybe, maybe what you’re saying now, Chris, is that it’s a lot more. Uh, focused on unity, uh, unity of the family unit, perhaps, or, you know, or people, um, a unity to your community. People finding. Uh, opportunity in connections in friends and family, uh, in, in, in things that are much more, less, uh, I guess financial in nature, but more, you know, enriching in terms of people’s lives.
Uh, is, is that, does that sound
Chris Reitermann: correct? Yeah, absolutely. You know, I, I, I definitely think that, uh, [00:20:00] people the last two years maybe got back to basics a bit and, and. You know, remembered a few things that they maybe forgot in the last 10 years or 20 years before. And, and some of these things will definitely stick.
I, I definitely think family, uh, you know, has become more important again, and, and appreciating, uh, your family. I, I do think, uh, a lot of the basic values, uh, have become more prominent again. I think people may be more happy with simple things in their life. You know, simple joys, uh, you know, instead of flying to Paris for the weekend, you maybe go to the suburbs for, for a walk or something like that.
Uh, you know, people, I think, become, became more. Conscious in, in how they spent their money. I think there’s a lot of uncertainty still about what the future holds and, and people, you know, [00:21:00] think, will stuff like this happen again? Who knows? So I think people are a bit more mindful in, in how they live, how they spend their money, you know, what they do with their life.
Uh, and that I think affects a lot of things. You know, lot, lot of consumer behavior, but also, you know, how people work. What kind of jobs people want to do, how much they work, uh, how they balance. So
Ali Kazmi: is that the type of thing that young people joining Ogilvy ask from their managers or seek from their managers more balanced life?
I know that Bryce and I never got that.
Chris Reitermann: Well, you know, one, one, uh, very interesting thing is, uh, when you remember like 10 years ago, 20 years ago, uh, I think our industry was, was kind of seen as a. You know, You work very long hours. You, you work way too much Often like parents told their kids don’t work in advertising because they never go, [00:22:00] go home.
Now, actually a lot of people that joined the tech companies over the last kind of 10 years, They, they actually want to come back to our industry because they feel it’s, their work life balance is much better. So now we’ve suddenly became like a, a safe haven for people and, and, uh, uh, people start to appreciate maybe working in this environment a bit more than, than they used to in the past because, uh, you know, the tech companies definitely, uh, have lost a lot of their.
Swagger and attraction to people. And, and obviously there’s been a lot of layoffs in, in the tech industry,
Bryce Whitwam: it seems that work-life balance reflects about how late you come to work. It seems that every year, uh, you add 15 minutes in terms of when the work, work starts. I mean, used to be that, that it, when you walk into WPP campus at nine 30, there’s a few people strangling in, you know, Fit [00:23:00] mostly that 10 o’clock was the rush.
Now, I swear to God, it’s like people coming into work and going to lunch at the same time that like 12 noon now is, is the, uh, is the time, uh, that people come in and then they head out, well, let’s go to lunch now.
Chris Reitermann: Why is that only happened that Wunderman Thompson, but not that overview ever.
Ali Kazmi: I was on the elevator the other day going up to whatever, the 31st floor, and I think there was a client and a, and a marketing manager, so director and a manager in the same elevator as me.
I mean, they didn’t know that I understood Mandarin, but I walk into the elevator, this is around 11 o’clock. I, I was at a doctor’s appointment earlier that day, so, So I had to, you know, there was no way I was gonna be at work at nine o’clock. But, uh, the moment I get into the elevator, they’re like,
I didn’t say anything. And then the marketing manager lady kind of looks to the boss.[00:24:00]
So there is a reputation for advertising businesses in general, uh, for, you know, people in our industry to start pretty late, but it’s not as bad as t w a, I think that was pretty bad. I think people kind of came after
Chris Reitermann: lunch having traveled to quite a few places, uh, in the past few months. Uh, I think in China, you go to our office, uh, you will see way more people than in some other market.
I think I’ve been here, uh, people were actually quite keen to come back to work and, and go back to the office. Uh, you know, in, in, in the us in the uk and in many other places, uh, I think it’s, it’s quite hard to get people to come back to the office in, in western, uh, economies. Look at kind of three days per week or something like that, that people actually show up in the office.
I mean, in, in China, people were very happy to go back to work. You know, I do, I do think the whole concept of kind of, you have to come to work at nine and work to six, whatever is like, uh, maybe also a bit [00:25:00] outdated. I mean, as long as they get the job done, I don’t really mind if they come at 10 or 10 30 or 11 and, and often they do stay late.
Give them a better
flexibility.
Bryce Whitwam: Yeah. There’s so much tied to socialization in Asia and especially China with coming to work and hanging out with your friends and deciding what you’re gonna get from Matan, uh, for dinner and, and having that whole, whole aspect of the life, lifestyle. And, and the truth is that the lockdowns in China were not.
I mean, yeah, we had a serious three month one in Shanghai, where aside from that, people were generally coming to work through the three years. I mean, it wasn’t like in other places where, where people started to feel, they started to become acclimated by not going to work. Chris, do you think, and I’ve always asked this question because having.
Taught some marketing students who would be all prime candidates to work at Ogilvy. They’re looking more towards working at the brands. They, they see their careers [00:26:00] as being more fruitful on, on the client side. Their response to me oftentimes is that, well, we did an internship at an agency, not necessarily at Ogilvy, but at another agency, and it was really just a sweatshop.
They are so bogged down with. Tons and tons of content creation. There’s very little strategy that I expected. There is basically like a creative farm of content that’s being developed for their clients, and they want to get more into the strategic side of things by joining a client. Uh, is that a false representation of, of agency life now or is it becoming more.
More production oriented? Yeah, I, first of all,
Chris Reitermann: I think there’s definitely always some people that will end up on the client side. It’s always been like that. I don’t think that being on a client side is necessarily more strategic than being in an agency side. Um, you know, a lot of the clients [00:27:00] also do a lot of.
Low end work and, and work very hard. And actually I have, you know, several former colleagues that are on the client side. They work just as hard as we do and they work as late hours as we do, and they. You know, also have the same issue because they have to manage massive amounts of content and, and massive amount of, you know, different campaigns and stuff like that.
So it’s not like you join the client side and suddenly you only do strategic stuff. No way. I do think as an agency we have to just make sure that we do what we’re supposed to do. Well, and you know, I think a lot of people join agencies. They’re. Yeah, they may be disappointed that, uh, the, the initial dream that they had about joining an agency is not quite what they thought it is.
Uh, and that’s often because agencies have gone so far downstream that, uh, you know, there is not much left on [00:28:00] strategy or, or big kind of creative ideation. A lot of it is just producing stuff and churning out stuff. But that’s not necessarily the type of work, you know, we should be doing. I mean, that’s definitely part of what we do right now.
Uh, so I think we have to make sure the balance is right and we have to make sure we do what we’re supposed to do as an agency. And, and you know, I, I always see it when I go around the region or to other offices in the world. We are creative business. That’s where we are. Any agency I go to that has a great creative reputation, Has much less of an issue retaining people than agencies that don’t.
So you wanna work, if you work in advertising or you work in, you know, our part of, in our business, you want to work in a creative environment. You want to do great creative work. You want to brainstorm ideas, you want to do stuff that you couldn’t do on a client or add a client. That’s [00:29:00] why many of us haven’t joined clients over the years.
And I think if you don’t have that in an agency, then there’s no point to stay in an agency, then you can go anywhere. So, so I think it’s, it’s important for us running these agencies to make sure that we stand for what we’re supposed to stand for and we, you know, invest, uh, in, in our creative product, our creative reputation, and we create an environment that’s creative and, and then I don’t think you have a big issue with people leaving.
Obviously there’s always people that leave, but you know, I don’t think we have higher churn rates than many of our clients. And
Bryce Whitwam: I recall that Ogilvy was actually Ogilvy China as I recall. How, how, how, when did Ogilvy become one? Ogilvy? Uh, that was when Ogilvy PR and Ogle V one all became, was that, how many years ago was that five years ago?
Chris Reitermann: Ages ago. More than that. Ages
Bryce Whitwam: seven now, I think. Okay. [00:30:00] Yeah, 2016. I recall in the Ogilvy world, China was the, one of the first markets to do so is to combine into one brand. It was, at the time was somewhat controversial, especially with people who are, you know, from a digital or PR background. But the reality is now that that seems to be, it’s common throughout the entire industry as we’re seeing more and more warmer agency disciplines becoming more integrated.
Where do you see the next big thing coming from China? I mean, you’re Asia-Pacific role, where do you see China as in terms of the industry, as seeing the next big change, the next big transformation that could potentially come from the China advertising industry? In terms of either internally, how we work or externally in terms of the clients?
What, what’s the next transformation evolution? Well, let me,
Chris Reitermann: let me first, uh, go back seven years in time. Okay. I, [00:31:00] I, Wouldn’t take the credit for saying we were the first, um, this was a global, uh, direction and, and a global strategy that at that time we thought is the right thing to do. And there’s always kind of two forces that you try to balance.
On one hand, you want to provide. Integrated solutions to clients and you want to bring all the different aspects of your business together at the same time, you know, clients also want specialization and and specialty expertise. And seven years ago we probably went a bit too far in in that integration because putting everything together, yes, it solved the issue of being disjointed and not showing up as one, but it also.
Didn’t really enable us to build or to continue to build the specialisms that we needed in a focused enough way. So since then we’ve actually adjusted. [00:32:00] Our structure a little bit to get the best of both worlds. So we still, uh, go to market as one Ogilvy. We still run it as one business, but we went back to have, uh, what we previously had as separate companies now as kind of bu under one, one brand, uh, to get back some of that specialism and, and focus on specialism because there’s a lot of people they.
They wanna be specialists and a lot of clients are looking for specialists. So we have to be able to go to clients as an integrated offer when clients want it. But we also have to be able to go to clients as a specialist in. Data or public relations or social or whatever, if that’s what clients want.
And we have to be able to do both in the best possible way on the evolution of China and what China can bring to the world. You know, I personally think that having spent most of my, uh, career in [00:33:00] China, uh, there’s a lot more that China could bring to the world because. You know, we’re operating in the most digital market in the world.
Yes, it’s, uh, different ecosystems and different platforms, but you know, the way brands are built and will be built in the future. That’s happening here. I don’t think we get enough credit for that and, and we don’t leverage enough of those learnings in other parts of the world. Same thing the other way around, because probably people outside of China think, you know, everything is different in China, so it doesn’t really apply.
But when you look, for example, uh, you said before you want to become a professor in social commerce or something, you know, there’s no place that’s more advanced in social commerce, China, the platforms, uh, when you compare doin to TikTok, for example, much more advanced than what you can do in doin, uh, in China, was what you can do on TikTok outside of China.
So there’s a lot of stuff [00:34:00] that, you know, brands can learn and agencies can learn in how things work in China, and, and I wish sometimes, uh, we could do better in, in our own PR as an industry and, and bring some of that, uh, to the rest of the
Ali Kazmi: world. So China’s looking at, uh, uh, a 5% growth, uh, in 2023. So while that looks very good on its surface, obviously 2022 and 21 were very difficult years.
So the 5% growth perhaps in real terms, isn’t exactly what it seems. What sort of growth are you expecting? You know, and also I think if we take, I don’t know, maybe a, a 10 year view or 20 year, 20 year view on advertising, um, similar to what, you know, just following up on what Bryce said, uh, a lot of growth for advertising really came out of our advertisers clients looking at expanding into lower tier markets.
So now that there’s a little bit more, you know, let’s say China’s a bit more mature, um, when it comes to brand [00:35:00] choice, how do you see that affecting your business? The types of, you know, the type of work you do, the types of advertisers you start engaging with. We’ve made reference to some of the top five clients.
Um, how is work with those clients changing, uh, in retrospect and given that, you know, that’s a challenging year both for advertisers, but also for agency alike? In, in
Chris Reitermann: general, I’m a pessimist. Uh, even though I always look optimistic, I, I really feel that, you know, we’re coming. Out of the worst, uh, in China.
And, uh, when you just look at January, February, and March, uh, you clearly can see a rebound. Okay. And I do think in the first quarter of this year, many companies were still cautious because a lot of decisions that they make for q1 they made in Q4 last year when things were still, you know, in [00:36:00] lockdown mode.
I. Talked to one of our CPG clients that that measure kind of foot traffic in retail, where actually they looked at a high double digit downside in January, which became flat versus last year in February and March, actually growing against last year. And remember, this was pre lockdown, okay? Traffic installs.
Is up versus last year pre lockdown. So I am quite optimistic that, uh, we’re gonna see some good growth, uh, in q2, q3, q4. Uh, I do think that for our business, uh, we always aim to do better than GDP growth. So I hope we can achieve that this year. So I think in, in short term, I think, uh, you know, this year should be, uh, Decent in China.
If you look midterm [00:37:00] long term, you know, I, I am still convinced that China is a. You know, market that many of the multinationals just have to be in. It’s too big not to be in there. If you wanna be in China, you better be successful. You don’t wanna be in China not being successful. So I think multinationals will continue to invest.
Uh, and, and you know, for many of our multinational clients, China is 20, 30, 40, 50% of global sales. Uh, so it’s not that they can just pack up and leave the way they operate in China definitely has to change if they wanna be successful. And again, some multinationals are doing this already. Quite successfully for many years.
Some, you know, have a lot of catching up to do. Uh, you will definitely see a lot of kind of China for China by many multinationals where they have to do much better in r and b. Uh, they have to do much more local product [00:38:00] development. They have to localize much more than they’ve done in the past. Uh, again, you see that happening across the board, you know, across every industry.
Um, I do think, uh, some are doing it much better than others. So, so it will continue, China will continue to be an important market for, for many of our multinational clients, and they will continue to invest. Uh, on the other hand, you know, we have increasingly domestic clients, uh, for, for, you know, we used to have or half domestic clients for many, many years.
Uh, and what I always find, uh, very interesting is the, the different. Things they come to us for, uh, most of the multinationals, they, they come to us, uh, thinking, okay, I, I know my business quite well. I’m quite good strategically, but help me navigate the kind of Chinese ecosystem. So help me figure out how to do social, how to do [00:39:00] commerce, how to do all that stuff.
I wish that we would have more conversations with multinationals around brands and more high level strategic stuff, but often we don’t or we don’t have it enough. Uh, a lot of them, the local clients, they actually come to us and say, Help me figure out my brand. I want to build a strong lasting brand. And they come to us.
Uh, they don’t come to local agencies. Uh, they come to us because they know we’ve done this for many of the global top five, 500 brands in the world. Uh, for a lot of. Domestic clients, we actually are deeply engaged in brand strategy and in globalization, in expanding their brands globally. Stuff like that.
And, and that hasn’t really slowed down. Uh, you know, I think a lot of people said like, oh, China now much more inward focused. A lot of the big Chinese companies are very much still looking at. Expanding globally and, and, you know, setting up a global [00:40:00] footprint, maybe in a slightly different geographic setup than they would’ve done that five years ago.
But, but still, you know, that, that’s, uh, a, a big growing part of our
Ali Kazmi: business. What do you mean by a different geographic footprint? The choice of markets that they want to enter today is different to what they did, what they would’ve five, 10
Chris Reitermann: years ago. Work with a lot of, uh, Chinese brands 10 years ago in entering the United States.
Uh, that has, you know, dried up quite a lot for obvious reasons. Uh, we worked. With a lot of brands in entering Western Europe. Um, I think many companies have slowed down there. Uh, we do a lot of work with Chinese brands, uh, in Latin America. We do a lot of work with Chinese brands in the Middle East, Southeast Asia, uh, especially Middle East, I think has been, you know, a, a, a big focus for, for many Chinese [00:41:00] brands, uh, Saudi Arabia and, and, you know, Other, other parts of the Middle East.
But, you know, it doesn’t change the type of work that we do for them because they, they want to know how do I, uh, build a global brand or how do we, how do, how do I become a more international business? And, and that’s something we obviously can help, uh, many of our domestic clients with.
Bryce Whitwam: I think I was on aBrand Z panel or you were presenting at brands Z at one time and that was in 2018. And you said for local brands going global, one of the biggest challenges that they have is just overall confidence, uh, in, in their brand and being able to build that confidence. Do you still hold that today or do you think that the challenge for brands going global, local brands going global are different?
Chris Reitermann: The type of brands we work with now? Going global is slightly different than what it was 10 [00:42:00] years ago, or, or I think now it’s a lot of the domestic players that are already very successful, big Chinese players or, or domestic players, so, so these companies, they know what they’re doing in terms of marketing.
They’re already successful brands in, in China. Uh, they have processes, they have, uh, capabilities when it comes to, to marketing. So, so, uh, easier for them to kind of grasp what needs to be done. I think that the key challenge that most of the Chinese companies have when they go broadest talent, I think that, you know, they just don’t have enough.
Talent locally that are experienced in operating in global markets. And, and I think that’s where they need a lot of help with. And, and that’s, you know, not an easy task because even, you know, you, [00:43:00] you say whatever, you go into Brazil, you can hire local talent in Brazil, but then how does that Brazilian talent deal with headquarter in Shenzhen or Chino or whatever, where.
None of those people have ever worked on anything, uh, outside of China. So, so it’s, it’s often a big cultural challenge and, and, and, you know, you need, uh, this takes time to build. Just being
Bryce Whitwam: within the academia space, there’s so many talented young. International students studying abroad, still 360,000 in the US and that one of the key aspects for them is to be able to build that bridge to go back and help brands that you just mentioned to, to see things in a bigger global perspective.
Chris Reitermann: One of our clients, Huawei, with, they sent tens of thousands of their. People to international markets. Now that [00:44:00] some of these markets, they’re not that active anymore, they actually send a lot of them back to Shez. It’s actually quite interesting how that changed the culture there because we suddenly have a lot of people in Shenzhen that, you know, worked for many years in France.
So, Germany or UK or whatever, and, and it, you know, internationalizes, I think a lot of their thinking and, and approach to things. So it’s good for. People to go out and come back and bring that experience back to China.
Ali Kazmi: BrandZ’s kind of got a couple of points that they’ve made around what makes a powerful brand.
Um, they’ve talked about things like exposure, function, experience, digital, convenience, distinctiveness, um, and leading and dynamic. And these are all kind of, they’re partially brand, but there’s also a little bit of, there’s a lot of creativity and there’s a lot of technology as well, I think. Embedded in, in all of these points, where do you see, or how important [00:45:00] do you think creativity and technology is?
I mean, we can talk about ai, but technology and creativity in general. How important is that for brand builders today?
Chris Reitermann: Our business, uh, is much more technology driven than many people think. Obviously, creativity is, is what we’re all about. I think technology today enables us to, Bring that creativity to people in a much more targeted, much more efficient way than it’s ever been before.
You know, you look at some of the most, uh, successful campaigns around the world that have been, you know, a watering can and one titanium lions and whatever. It’s stuff where we were able to bring creativity and technology together and blend it in in some amazing new way. Uh, so, so you have, you know, massive opportunities today to use technology for, you know, doing things in a way probably you wouldn’t be able to, to do or [00:46:00] have done a couple of years ago.
So I think it’s a great opportunity for, for us as an industry. And, uh, that’s just, uh, On the creative side, obviously, you know, technology enables many other things to create efficiencies and get costs out of business, deliver things in a more efficient way, optimize things. Uh, uh, I, I think technology is, is a huge enabler for us to, to do much better than we’re doing.
You know, in the past you’ve been,
Bryce Whitwam: your career solely at, at Ogilvy. There certainly must be a. Favorite David Ogilvy quote that you find is timeless? What, what’s that quote that you find that you keep going back to? It’s funny. Uh, when I teach advertising, I still go back to Ogilvy quotes. I still go back to the David Ogilvy on advertising book, even though the business has really evolved.
What for you is that quote, Chris?
Chris Reitermann: Actually, I have so many that I like. Uh, [00:47:00] if you, if you remember the, the good old Vy office. Uh, in, in, uh, Uh, in the center we fall, we had that the entrance encourage innovation changes. Our lifeblood stagnation is our death mill. That’s kind of one that I, that I like because it reminds us to keep on going to, you know, stand still to always look for new things.
So if I had to pick one, that’s probably the one, but I have many others. Also like one, which is, uh, I think if each of us hire people that are bigger than we are, we become a company of giants. I think there’s still too many people out there that like to hire dwarfs, uh, because they wanna be the biggest.
So I think that’s a good reminder for, for anyone, not just in our industry, and every business, get higher people that are better than you are then. It probably will be a good company in the future. I, you know, I have a good David Ogly quote for anything
Ali Kazmi: actually, like, I [00:48:00] think also Chris has corrected me on a number of fake David Ogilvy quotes.
I’ve dropped into presentations
Chris Reitermann: actually now with, uh, ai. With generated ai, you can create new David Ogilvy quotes, uh, and get him to say
Bryce Whitwam: it, merge them with Coco Chanel. What if you combine Cocoa Chanel and David Ogilvy, what would be the result? That’s our homework. You’re still in China. That’s always the question that we always ask people.
You’re still based there in Shanghai. Do you still see this as an important regional hub? It’s not a regional hub
Chris Reitermann: at all. It’s, uh, I just, I just happened to be here, first of all, I, I, you know, I, I like China. I’ve spent here. 20 plus years. Um, I, I still think there’s a lot of good experiences to be had. Uh, I, I also think that, you know, the next 10 years in China will be very interesting, you know, in a very different way.[00:49:00]
You know, many people kind of said, especially people that have been in China for a long time, they’re like, okay, it’s time to move on. It’s time to do something else. I still think there’s, you know, uh, a need for a bit of cultural diversity here. Uh, not everything can be local and shouldn’t be. I do think it’s absolutely the right thing that companies localized.
You know, there’s great Chinese talent, every aspect. So you don’t need hundreds of expats in, in companies. You know, it’s the same in every other market, so, It’s, I think, a natural trend, but I also think that, you know, this market is still a very interesting market and it’s gonna be the biggest economy in the world in, in a few years time.
So there’s no doubt that this will happen. You know, nothing wrong with being based in the biggest economy in the world. Definitely whatever we do in China is much more now for China. Uh, China will not be a regional hub anytime soon. As long as I’m [00:50:00] still wanted, I’ll stick around.
Bryce Whitwam: That’s awesome. Uh, Ali, are we ready for the AB test?
Ali Kazmi: The drum roll starts now. Yes. A stands for Ali, B stands for Bryce. Um, we’re gonna throw two words at you and you just need to pick whatever comes first to mind of the two choices. Feel free to pause and explain, you know, why you would choose one over the other. I’m gonna start right off. Um, number one, creativity or ideas?
Creativity. Beijing or Shanghai? Ah,
Chris Reitermann: always a difficult one.
Okay. If you, if you, uh, want an honest answer, uh, for myself right now, Shanghai. Okay. Uh, I did, uh, 10 years in Beijing. I love every second of it. Uh, at the stage I am in my life. I enjoy Shanghai very much. And, and that’s. Yeah, the right place for me to be. If I would be a 25 year old Chris, uh, coming to China, I would seriously think about xz, well, TikTok or
Ali Kazmi: [00:51:00] doin, uh, chat, G B T or Mid Journey.
Chris Reitermann:
Mid Journey. I like pictures.
Ali Kazmi: AI director or art director? Art director. Excellent. McDonald’s or
Chris Reitermann: KFC, what can I say? Obviously it’s KFC. And, you know, uh, we talked, we talked before about multinationals. Um, I, I do think K Ffc probably one of the better examples of how to be successful in China as a multinational company in every aspect of what they do.
Ali Kazmi: Um, I understand you’re multilingual. Um, so this is, uh, the eighth question over here, French. or Chinese or
Chris Reitermann: I thought you were talking about food. Uh, you mean the language, the
Ali Kazmi: country, actually, you can answer it anyway you want. Okay. [00:52:00]
Chris Reitermann: I, I was thinking no matter how you cut it, it’s Chinese,
Ali Kazmi: then I know what you’re gonna say on number 10.
Metaverse or artificial
Chris Reitermann: intelligence, obviously ai, after everything we talked about. And, and you know, I’m, I’m, I’m also a bit worried about AI because it’s getting so much hype at the moment. Uh, look at how much hype the Metaverse got a year ago, or a year and a half ago. And now it’s kind of like a, a word non grata.
You can like not mention it to anyone, uh, because I think people have massive expectations that, you know, People didn’t live up to. And I think ai, uh, you know, I think we need to be careful to not overhype it too much. Uh, obviously there’s massive, you know, opportunities in ai, but there’s also huge challenges, you know, around.
[00:53:00] Beta privacy about legal issues, lots of stuff. So, uh, I think a couple of people are already saying like, slow it down guys and, and let’s figure out a few things before we get too excited
Bryce Whitwam: about it. Absolute honor to be on the show. I can’t. Say how much I’ve appreciated being friends with you and working alongside you all these years.
Uh, I learned so much. Your insights are totally valuable as they were before, as they are now. So, uh, thanks again for being on the show today. We really appreciate it. Both, both
Chris Reitermann: Ali and myself. Thank you for finally having me. I thought you don’t like me. I was like, enviously, looking at all the people that you invited.
I was like, why not me? What did I do wrong?
Bryce Whitwam: It was one of those things. Worship. Should we invite Chris? No. No. Let’s wait a bit. Let’s wait. Let’s
Chris Reitermann: build some momentum. Yeah, we’re too small. Then we are like, they’re like, oh shit. Maybe we should ask Chris now. He’s not gonna
Bryce Whitwam: say no. But uh, so thank you for saying yes and thank you for being on the show, and thank you for everyone for joining us on today’s episode.
Join us in a few weeks [00:54:00] for another exciting show and to all our listeners. Until then, have a great day.